Prohibited floor designs in apartments with laminate, parquet and ceramic tiles. Repair at the entrance, broken windows and tiles: where to go and what to do? For a more complete comparison, it is worth listing all the advantages that a bulk coating has
Prohibited floor designs in apartments with laminate, parquet and ceramic tiles
Some generalization of information (to Sergey (Shumakov) - this is my message - the post is not a question!) - below:
"... some useful information (in order to minimally violate the rights of future neighbors from below and from the side and minimize the likelihood of one of the causes of conflicts) The fact is that most new buildings are rented out without an elastic 4-20 mm gasket between the screed and the CEILING (ceiling slab) of the lower neighbor ... And what they do in old houses - either by removing the floors on the logs or by laying laminate-parquet-tiles instead of Soviet linoleum - it's not worth talking about.
Useful information - BELOW:"... As for the so-called "SINGLE-LAYER" homogeneous floors. (certain FLOOR designs with a top layer in the form of laminate, parquet and ceramic tiles - without an elastic gasket 4-10 mm between the screed and the floor slab) ...
Currently, manufacturers do not test such structures with laminate / parquet / ceramic tiles as part of "single-layer floors" (without an elastic gasket between the floor slab and the screed (concrete or "dry").
Why do not manufacturers of laminate, parquet or ceramic tiles provide DETAILED and COMPLETE Test Reports from NIISF or another serious expert organization? That’s why they don’t produce it, since since the times of the USSR (and abroad) it has been established by tests that these types of floors do not meet the minimum requirements for sounds in the room BOTTOM by 7-12 times .. And what is the point for manufacturers of laminate / parquet / ceramic tiles to spend money to tests that show the non-conformity of their materials minimal requirements. For many years I have never come across test reports of such floors. For example, in the Institute of Building Physics (NIISF RAASN), which usually conducts such tests in apartment buildings..
But sometimes in the press against the will of the producers there are "indirect" negative test results of their materials in apartment buildings.
Just recently: article "Neighbor can be brought to justice", "Vechernyaya Moskva" No. 125 (25640) dated 07/11/2011. I will give an excerpt from there, written according to the results of testing floors that have recently been common in Russia
Valery ANGELOV, head sector of sound insulation and enclosing structures of the building of the Research Institute of Building Physics:
"... Usually, the upstairs neighbor interferes with the residents. This is due to a violation of sound insulation. The fact is that in social housing apartments are rented with linoleum, which is taken into account when calculating sound insulation. The sound absorption of linoleum is up to 18 dB, and for parquet and laminate - 8- 12 dB If residents change linoleum to parquet or laminate, the sound insulation is broken, and the neighbor from below begins to hear every sound above.
And monolithic buildings are rented without finishing at all. When the owners make repairs, they lay flooring immediately on the screed, but this is not enough ....... "And what do these numbers 8-12 dB mean in simple terms? Let's translate:
Let's take the latest regulatory building act SP 51.13330.2011 (updated version of SNIP 23-03-2003 "Noise protection and acoustics", mandatory for any repairs and work in an apartment building. They contain a MANDATORY parameter during testing (after alteration or creation) floors - reduced impact noise level in the LOWER room, - maximum - 60 dB!
And, for example, this indicator, in an apartment, the ceiling of which consists of common (more than 80% of houses) and in Russia multi-hollow slabs 220 mm or 16-18 cm monolithic can be found in the calculation examples of SNIP 1977 ("Protection from noise)" - 80 dB (this SNIP is easily downloaded from a bunch of sites).…. This refers to a "bare" floor slab or a slab with a concrete screed. But for simplicity, I advise you to download a popularly written and useful article by a Novosibirsk company (Link - sibamt.ru/Material/
"Soundproofing in residential buildings. Problems and solutions"
(you will find a lot of practical and useful information there):
There, in the floor test table (Table 2.1), you will also see this figure - that a 220-mm floor slab with a screed has this standard indicator for such slabs - 80 dB. And so that the neighbor from below does not become, in the worst case, a patient of a neurologist, is it required to reduce by how much? We believe:
We subtract from 80 dB in an apartment under a 220-mm multi-hollow or monolithic slab those 8-12 dB, which in the IDEAL case gives the so-called "laminate substrate" (see above - test data from an employee of the NIISF) - We get - 68-72 dB .. That is, from 8 to 12 dB is missing from the minimum required 60 dB. In Soviet-era houses handed over immediately with floors, the level of noise from walking-bumps was more or less brought to almost the minimum standard with medium-thick linoleum (which you will also see from this article and test tables) ... But what will your neighbor from above - ALWAYS ask this question...
That is, for single-layer floor structures with laminate or parquet, the noise in the lower apartment will be 7-11 times HIGHER (missing 8-12 dB, translated into "times" of intensity) So that the neighbor below at least does not hear your walking in a slipper and moderately hears running around children..-!About "forbidden" ceramic tile designs:
"... A reinforced concrete floor slab 140 mm thick without coating has an index of the reduced impact noise level of about Lw, n = 80 dB. In contrast to the" missing "to the norm in the case of airborne noise a couple of decibels, here the difference with the maximum permissible value (Lw,n = 60 dB for buildings of category B) is as much as 20 dB. This approximately corresponds to the case when a neighbor from above laid ceramic tiles directly on the ceiling. At the same time, absolutely all movements from above become audible in the lower room. And if in the previous publication it was said that the existing sanitary norms and the concept of acoustic comfort - things located far enough from each other, then what can be said in this case? ..." acoustic.ru/ref_book/article ... /overlaps/
Soundproofing floors, room soundproofing
"Construction Technologies", No. 5 2002)And here's another one from the answer on the soundproofing-acoustic forum of a soundproofing specialist of a well-known acoustics engineer A. Boganika:
"... Laying ceramic tiles on a "bare" (i.e. without a soundproof floor) floor structure is really the worst option. If just a leveling screed was left in the room, laid on the floor slab without any gasket (which, of course, is a theoretical assumption ) - this would be better in terms of impact sound insulation. When hitting the screed, the top layer of cement turns into dust, which begins to play the role of a cushion layer. (This can be clearly seen when testing in a sound chamber, when an impact machine that hits one and the same place of the "bare" floor slab becomes a little quieter after a while).
Strong and rigid ceramic tiles do not dampen anything, so those 20 dB of difference between the minimum requirements of SNiP and the actual value of the impact noise level in the absence of a ZI floor structure and the laid tiles become clearly and frighteningly audible.
At the same time, impact noise is clearly audible in adjacent rooms if such tiles are not made in the room above, but in the corridor above and on the side. And of course this a big problem, because life in the apartment below becomes nervous and uncomfortable ... "( from the acoustic forum site. ru - company AcousticGroup)That is why such floor constructs are not intended (and formally legally prohibited under the test conditions) in multi-apartment residential buildings. But since there is no sanction in the form of a fine for this, and the state let control take its course in the 90s, you yourself understand ...
So... If such floors (more precisely, the constructions of single-layer interfloor floors) are not even designed for walking in slippers or moving chairs, then what can we say about children running around!(Yes, I forgot to remind you - HUGE numbers - "15-19 dB" - on packages with a "steamed" substrate for laminate parquet (if you get a grasp and find out the truth - refers to the test results of thicker gaskets and usually under severe(!) coupler. However, on the topic of the real ratio of dB figures on rolls of 1.5-2 mm of a substrate for a laminate or parquet to completely different designs and completely different thicknesses of gaskets, only a lazy acoustician did not write.
However, you can try to get yourself from the sellers or from the manufacturer (letter to the site) Test report for floors (laminate or parquet) on the SOLD substrate. I think you will achieve the same result as me - silence in response ....
So as an additional step when getting an apartment, I advise you to find out what type of floor your upstairs neighbor is going to do ... .. AND NEGOTIATE! Then - almost impossible or expensive to fix ...
Otherwise, especially if you are a working person who needs to sleep at night before a working day, you can “get” into an uncomfortable situation (for example, small children, children and or some categories of non-working people and “wrong” floors above or on the side behind the wall)[Good luck in choosing an apartment and the "right" neighbors of neighbors and success in carrying out the "right" repair!
To be continued...
And the consequences of impact noise and “not recommended” floors apartment buildings manifest themselves as the effect of the multi-headed “Serpent Gorynych”: “One head drinks, and all the rest suffer from a hangover ..”. Explanation: impact noise has an “anti-neighborly” property: due to the resonances of ceilings, walls and rooms, impact sound is slightly attenuated, being transmitted several floors up and down and horizontally (in the terminology of acoustics - “structural” sound transmission.). And the sound is emitted everyone surfaces of neighbors' apartments - not just some one wall or ceiling-floor. He lowered the chair “carelessly” on the “wrong” floor after 23.00 - the sounds of the “strike” will intensify and reach all the nearest neighbors. And if the next neighbor also has “sound-conducting” floors, then, having weakened a little, he will reach more distant neighbors (like “fire along the gasoline track”). This is a “harmful” property of a tile (parquet-laminate has less) - “small internal attenuation”.
Myths about carpets.
There is a question on the site (claims from neighbors below after laying tiles on their ceiling in the hallway and kitchen): “What if I put carpet on the tiles?” Answer from an acoustic specialist: “If you put carpet under the tiles, then the impact noise reduction effect for the neighbors would be noticeable. No humor - the property of the system has long been known to professional acoustic engineers: “concrete slab-screed-tile” = resonant amplification of sound at 1-2 frequencies of the audible range. For example, the sounds of a moving chair are “heard” by neighbors from the side, from below. And a cheap carpet with a hard (not rubber) base will only reduce some of the “vertical” “impacts” (for example, the “stomping” of a child or falling objects) - the carpet cannot eliminate the “resonant system” that has arisen.
But the horizontal ones (a movable chair, for example) will weaken enough. If, however, a cheap 3-mm foam material (isolon, polyethylene foam, etc.) is also put under the carpet on the “wrong” floor, then the harm to neighbors' health will be halved. Resonant effects not provided for by the project will not disappear, but the number of neighbors to which sounds reach will decrease (like a fire on a “path” of gasoline), and the strength of the sound is the probability of waking up a neighbor, to whom the sound “bridge” of the “wrong sex” will carry percussion sounds. (For toilet-bath, where for waterproofing and sanitary reasons, as an exception, cheap rubber mats are allowed by SNiP).
There is a cartoon where a bear tries to climb into a house built by small animals ... Yes, the house was not designed for him ... And apartments with a “leveling (rough) screed” are not calculated according to the design sound insulation in order to put anything other than a thick one directly on this screed (4-5 mm) linoleum (with a bottom layer of foam) or parquet (laminate) in compliance with all technological soundproofing requirements (or a “floating” floor).
About sleep and "night" sounds
“…For awakening, the decisive role is played by those discrete components whose level is more than 10 dB higher than the average noise level………” (“Handbook of Technical Acoustics”, edited by M. Heckl and H. A. Müller, p. 106) - a situation where the sound volume during sleep, albeit for a short time, increases by 3 times (= 10 dB) in comparison with the permissible night background level. Also: “..may make sleep superficial or wake the sleeper. Sudden short-term noises are especially disturbing, for example, slamming doors, gunshots, barking dogs, and so on, the level of which exceeds the background noise by more than 10-15 dB.”(“Science and Life” No. 4.2006 p. 82.)
“.... We do not yet have effective methods shorten sleep without harm to health .... In the West, they made such an observation - on Monday morning the number of accidents increases sharply, and all because on Sunday they get up and go to bed also later than usual ....”
Director of the Somnological Center of the Ministry of Health of the Russian Federation Professor Ya. Levin
Article “How much sleep do you need…” “Komsomolskaya Pravda” March 25, 2009...required for complete recovery of the body (According to the World Health Organization). It's clear that 43% population - required 8 or more hours of sleep and 23.5% - more than 9 hours.
about available methods.
“By default”, the builders assume the duty of the movers to bring the sound insulation to the norm (at least not to worsen) and not to perform, without extreme necessity, excessive shock and other noise actions, which are not designed to suppress standard projects apartments.
But there are also affordable ways to reduce the harm, unknowingly and not on purpose, caused to neighbors, for example:
1. Free:
- do not slam the door on the latch, but carefully close it;
- do not “bang” with room and balcony doors;
- finish the “noisy-impact” activities (laundry) in the noisiest (according to the project - with “sound-amplifying” tile floors) room of the apartments - the bathroom) if possible (!) before 23.00 at night;
- in rooms with such floors, if possible, do not “stomp” and do not use slippers with hard heels,
- lower - move furniture (chairs, sofa layout) “slowly and sadly”, etc.
- pieces rubber seal, with which windows are sealed (“E”-profile-the thinnest or “P” or “D”-thicker) around the perimeter of the doors in the apartment, if young children or the elderly or drunk do not always control their actions by “slamming” the doors;
- felt (rubber) padding on chair legs;
- cheap carpeting (and even more effective, cheap 3 mm foam under it) in those places where furniture (chairs) moves (after 23.00) on “sounding” floors, a sofa unfolds, etc.
- A carpet in a room with a “sound amplifying” floor in a place where, after 23.00, the mistress’s heels click, etc.
Last edit by moderator: 03/12/14
At least in the table of this brochure I mentioned, the comparative materials in terms of "prohibited" and part of conditionally recommended ("allowed" - relevant building requirements) floors .. (Analyze the materials of the REGULATORY act-SNIP 1977 "Protection from noise" (for apartment buildings), where in the text and in tables 10-14 almost all permitted-corresponding floor constructs are presented - a little longer and more stressful ..) SNIP1977 " Noise protection" is easily and free of charge downloaded from many sites of legal or construction documents - just enter "SNIP1977 "Noise protection" in the search bar...
And SNIP 1977 also contains a floor structure on logs along glass wool strips (analogous to Vibrostek), which, in different options, including those with strips of roofing material, and without an elastic gasket between the log and the floor slab, were in 90% of houses rented before the 90s) and a concrete screed of more than 100 kg of mineral wool density and other types of LOWER (!) a layer of "correct" MULTILAYER floors (and in Table 14 of SNIP 1977 - a type of SINGLE-LAYER floor - types of 4-5 mm linoleum (which can be laid directly on the floor slab to "extinguish" 15-20 dB of impact noise missing)
The only thing that is not in SNIP 1977 from floor constructs that give acceptable results in terms of impact noise levels in the lower apartment - there is no KNAUF "dry screed" floor construct "... So this is understandable - such types of floors, and the GVL materials themselves and GKL, in those days were not common in the USSR and were not produced by construction plants on such a scale as they are now ...
Last edit by moderator: 03/14/14
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To the last paragraph of the previous message-addition:
... But a similar design (as well as an analogue - but with a larger (!) Surface mass - Rokvolovsky (and other mineral wool manufacturers) construct from "two layers of plywood according to FloorButts") (although more mass and, accordingly, greater efficiency ) is given in points 2 and 3 of Table 12. BELOW:
...2. Floor covering on a monolithic screed or prefabricated slabs with a surface density of 60 kg/m2 over a soundproof layer with a dynamic modulus of elasticity 3 104 - 10 104 kgf/m2
3. The same, for a soundproof layer of sand or slag with a dynamic modulus of elasticity 8 105 - 13 105 kgf / m2 ...
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At one time, when there was no Internet, but there was a problem in my apartment with sounds from the elevator - I "hung" in our regional scientific library (and in a couple of scientific libraries in Russian cities - on vacation) And according to the "content" of sections I studied construction textbooks (available in the SCIENTIFIC (!) REGIONAL (!) Library), an interesting thing turned out:
The topic of "sound absorption" (and not even sound insulation!) is touched on a maximum of ten pages only in the course "Building materials."Of course, there were" available "in the library repositories and textbooks, for example, Kovrigin's "Architectural and Construction Acoustics" or the manuals of Soviet acousticians Kreitan or Lvov .. But ... as I understand it, the topic of ACOUSTICS (and even more so -" sound insulation of enclosing structures" as an independent course (at least ONE per semester!) Is studied only in NON-CONSTRUCTION universities (aviation, shipbuilding, radio engineering or some other specialization) And then - as part of the GRADUATE specialization or optional. In general, I concluded that with the exception of the actually quite good normative document (SNIP 1977) and a couple of five normative and non-normative documents in its development IN DETAILS, when training future builders, this topic is not brought up ... (NO DOUBT - more important in training is the development by a builder or architect of knowledge about strength ( stability) of structures and their calculations or information about structures and materials that provide thermal conditions ... And the course of study is limited to 5 years.
Another thing is that, due to the state construction mechanism in the USSR, TYPICAL ( recommended) floor structures (as components of the House Projects) were MANDATORY upon delivery .. (That is, REALLY, future civil engineers or design architects did not need knowledge of these matters - "there is a project where smart people from the Center took into account everything and received all permissions" ..) And these typical constructs in the projects of the times of the USSR, of course, met the minimum requirements for interfloor sound insulation for residential buildings of category "B" (least comfort) .. (Well, maybe with the exception of some experimental series) I just remind you that I lived in different types houses built in the 60s and 70s (both panel and brick) BUT! Even in a student (!) hostel and in a municipal panel hostel, I did not feel the "presence" of neighbors from above or from above-to-side (talking about shock noises) - unless something heavy, such as a chair or a "drunk body" falls from above. Is it any different when my neighbors from the top from THEIR ceiling (!) (LAST (!) floor) heard the child of the apartment from the BOTTOM (my side neighbors) running across the floor from "tiles on screeds" (a large hall-living room in my 4-room side neighbors ... And I heard, respectively, how the neighbors cat "sweeped" over the SAME tiled floor over me .. (when behind the half-brick wall the neighbor's granddaughter or the neighbor on the "wrong" parquet floor something rearranges - tozh to hear.
And why - in all these houses (projects from the times of the USSR), the upper neighbors had PROJECT floors "on the logs" (one of the structures that reduce TYPICAL HOUSEHOLD impact noise to inaudibility.
Note: perhaps, since I have no experience of communicating with teachers of construction or architectural universities, I am not so right. And my conclusions about the absence of a detailed course (semester, section) of study on "soundproofing of building envelopes and residential buildings" were erroneous ...
Last edit: 03/15/14
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1) About the protection of the TECHNICAL side of your room - so ask more specific a question for specialists (S. Shumakov) with the obligatory reference to the thicknesses and structures of the walls and ceilings of YOUR apartment and the type of floor of your upstairs neighbors. ... If you are still on this forum, using the phrase "Room in a room" entered in the "Search" line, you doubt the solutions (PARTIAL (!) TECHNICAL (!) In this way - technical ...
..
2) On the practice and prospects of a judicial and legal solution to the issue (compliance with SNIp, etc.) -on the forum A couple of years ago, the "Club of the Defenders of Silence" briefly cited the materials of expert surveys, and an employee of one of the firms under the nickname "Oksana" told about the practice of such cases .. Go to that forum -
http://boomdown.com/node/1348 Topic "Example of a Successfully Drafted Statement of Claim"
..And there or in the same topic after registration, ask a question or try it in a personal ...
However, you can search the Internet yourself - maybe over the past couple of years the practice has been enriched with new legal solutions ...3) MONEY is a great incentive ... often (but not always) You can offer (buy) your upstairs neighbors to buy carpets with an elastic backing at YOUR expense (half measure, of course and ineffective) - but at least something ... Sometimes, from experience, it works (although the effect is not the best - by no means - in comparison with "floating" floors.)..
Or pay in full (half? materials?) or a thick 5 mm linoleum or a "floating" floor according to one of the schemes given on this forum ... It's me - in all seriousness - you need a RESULT ..?4) And honestly - with intractable or, especially, associative neighbors, or even more so with a "non-working" rhythm of life (at night after 22.-23.00 they don’t sleep), I somehow don’t see an overly optimistic way out if there are “forbidden” anti-neighbor constructs upstairs floor ... Moving - to the LAST floor or to a house with floors corresponding to SNIP 2003 (SP2011) (or SNIP 1977 - part of the houses of old buildings with the correct "floors on logs.") - not always real ...
As I already wrote, I have good and civilized neighbors ... so you can live (sometimes with earplugs ..)
In general, classic soundproof ceiling on vibration suspensions with a depth of -13-15 cm .. well, as in this forum in FAQ C, Shumakova) and classic soundproof lining non-bearing( acoustically light) walls (or cutting them off from the ceiling - when technical feasibility!) - I would try (which I myself am going to do in my apartment for several years now - my elevator "howls" in the apartment due to its proximity to the elevator shaft - so special materials were purchased (except for non-special - GVL, GKL and profiles with fasteners. - what can be bought easily and should be immediately before the process) - vibration suspensions and mineral wool and Vibrostek have been waiting ... for a long time).
As for other methods, I can’t advise you, because advice entails a certain responsibility. Even the “room in a room” design does not guarantee 100% against strong impact sounds from above on forbidden floors (a certain strong (!) Intensity) (it does not guarantee - only in my assumption - no more! - I myself still have a ceiling in my apartment on vibration suspensions and cutting off the non-load-bearing interior partition I didn’t do it from the floor slab - it’s not for me to judge the possible or maximum efficiency ...) ..
.On the site-forum "Club of the Defenders of Silence"-there... people are trying in all sorts of ways.Well, what should I do with such neighbors? They just got me in one corner of the apartment, they already called the police - zero effect.
Registration: 06/20/11 Messages: 3.133 Acknowledgments: 1.556
Innovation: The legal aspect of "forbidden" floor structures (interfloor ceilings) began to be actively dealt with (up to requests to the Ministry of Construction and the prosecutor's office, not to mention work (complaints) that have not stopped for at least several years to residential inspections) on the popular forum "Club of Silence Defenders ."
After a long break, I came to this good site and ...
By clicking on the left on this forum on the line on the left "Latest posts" you will see in at least two of the more than a dozen topics (recent discussions) for August the results of attempts since 2013, both through the prosecutor's office and through the housing inspections and through the Ministry of Construction of Russia, to begin the procedure for changing the practice of legislation and wording in terms of arbitrariness with the installation of floors ..
Either through the recognition of most of the constructive floor - as if "common property" (divergence on "prohibitions" hits the brains of the inhabitants of SEVERAL apartments. And through attempts to introduce into the registration certificate the section on the composition of the floor that disappeared in the 80s-90s. ..
In general, the arbitrariness of the upper neighbors with a slab of THEIR (!) Ceiling obviously got people.
And until the chelas pass this stage, it is difficult to hope for a GENERAL and effective result.
Read for yourself - I gave a link on how to get to this useful presentation of the material on the forum site “Club of the Defenders of Silence” on “forbidden sexes” from an unusual angle.
..Very informative text with a description and full calculations and answers from the BTI (and Rostekhinventarizatsiya) and the Ministry of Construction of the Russian Federation and the Prosecutor's Office.
And calculations (not all) from technical and technical-legal regulations by gender ..
(It is interesting, for example, to read excerpts from an answer from one of the administrative bodies in the spirit of “.. how do you imagine – how will we remove skirting boards and ….”)
The main thing is that this path has been beaten .. The first and most inefficient stage(work with administrative authorities, and not with judicial ones - the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation) passed ...
Maybe the chelas (under the nickname Praktik and another) will STILL go along the standard path - the SECOND often PRODUCTIVE stage will pass .. Along the STANDARD and TYPICAL path to get the result that many have already gone through ... often in very small print they print Decisions of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation on the recognition of certain formulations of technical and legal acts as invalid in general or as valid in a DIFFERENT sense than previously recognized by the body that issued them ....
- Appeal to the world, regional (republican) - in order to “recognize ....” or “force….” (by filling in the columns of the technical passport of the BTI (Rostekhinventarization) of their area. (and a standard appeal to the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation - in the order of or directly challenging two or three technical and legal acts on the list of actions recognized as redevelopment and (and) on filling out the column in the Technical passports on the FULL constructive gender .. (Or in the order of supervision by decisions of lower (world or regional courts)
- Appeal to the RF Armed Forces DIRECTLY for correction
(“recognition as inappropriate……in the sense in which redevelopment does not imply a change in the design (composition) of the floor, including………….”
And
“……recognition as inappropriate (invalid) in the sense in which it is not implied that it is mandatory to include in the data sheet a description of the floor structure with inclusion of the characteristics of heat and sound insulating (elastic) layers”
The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation often make something like such decisions and wordings ... And within its competence is the JUDICIAL interpretation of that Decree of the Government, which defines certain types of actions, YET specifically recognized as redevelopment .... And within its competence (of the Supreme Court of the Russian Federation) is the JUDICIAL interpretation of the paragraphs of the Order of the Ministry for inventory (MANDATORY entry into the columns of the data sheet of the ENTIRE floor construct) and the Government on the procedure and methodology for the inventory (entering data and the form of the data sheet) on the need to enter the DESIGN of the floor in the Data Sheet (And in accordance with CURRENT the wording of the Housing Code of the Russian Federation and the Technical Standards for the Operation of Housing, which allow recognizing a change in the floor structure as a redevelopment) If you cannot go the direct route - there is no fine in the Code of Administrative Offenses of the Russian Federation for violating the Construction Rules AT ALL, and it is unlikely to appear - then you can look for OTHER . To follow the COMPLETELY REASONABLE path of recognition and change in the form of a SPECIFIC and UNIQUE wording in the Government Decree - There is no penalty in the Code of Administrative Offenses of the Russian Federation for violation of SNiPs and SP GENERALLY - only in cases where the violation of SNIPs resulted in death or other serious consequences ...
So far, this is present only in the form of a requirement of SNIP (SP) without a fine in the Code of Administrative Offenses of the Russian Federation). There are enough such acts. There is a ban (either direct or INDIRECT - in the form of a DEMAND), but there is no punishment ... Given our customs and some kind of legal ... e ... nihilism, the income levels of most Russians, the absence of such a fine may be reasonable ...
Opinion: In my opinion, it is unlikely that people from the forum are hoping for - a change in the Housing Code of the Russian Federation and the Government Decree on the composition of common property - On recognition as "COMMON PROPERTY" "interfloor flooring, including the mandatory elastic layer in the floor structure.." or "interfloor overlap and floor, without finishing (upper) layer of the floor" .. Something needs to be left to please the aesthetic tastes of the residents. But what the hell is not joking, maybe people will achieve this through their own State Duma deputies and other lobbyists ...
They achieved the decision of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation that the enclosing structures (slabs) of balconies are the COMMON property of the owners of the house .. (definition Supreme Court RF dated January 17, 2012 No. KAS11-789)
Note(about the TYPICAL position of administrative bodies):
A couple of years ago, even the most advanced inspection (GZhI, Moscow) limited itself in response to Muscovites' statements about "forbidden floor structures at the top" with answers, like.
“there must be an elastic gasket in the floor structure above the living quarters ...” Ignoring, for example, the explanations in ST SEV on impact noise and in our SNIPs and on taking into account the need for change and ACCOUNTING DIAGONAL( Taki - for the sake of interest. Here is an example of the most loyal answer on the GZhI website of Moscow from 2011.
Question: Good afternoon. House series P-3M 1998. Foamed linoleum lay on the floor slab. It was quiet. Now the neighbors on the floor above have replaced it with parquet, which was laid through plywood, while soundproofing was not done. .We have become noisy. Hearing steps, movement of objects. Heard when a small object falls. Is this a violation? How to be in this situation? Can the inspectorate appoint an examination of the floors. Or you need to apply to the court with a request to appoint an examination.
Answer:
For the examination, grounds are needed, i.e. confirmation of the fact that the noise level in your apartment exceeds the permissible values. You can invite a licensed organization that will measure the noise from any sources during the day and at night. In difficult cases, when the noise effect is unstable or has a random unpredictable character, it is possible to install a noise recorder that records changes in any area of the sound spectrum. Based on the results of the research, a report is compiled with measurement data, as well as recommendations for eliminating sources of noise exposure. However, in order to determine the reason for the excess acceptable level noise requires access to the apartment above and the consent of the neighbors to open the floor. Violation is an inconsistent change in the design of the floor. In case of refusal of access, the issue can be resolved through the court. If you apply in accordance with the established procedure to the Moscow Housing Inspectorate, your appeal will be considered and the necessary measures will be taken on it. However, it should be noted that the Moscow Housing Inspection does not pay for noise level measurements.
And below is another also typical answer of the GZhI of Moscow from 2011 (less loyal to the lower neighbors of self-governing officers with THEIR CEILING slab) ..
Question: Hello! Can you please tell me how the apartment is checked for redevelopment of floors? And what is the difference between "re-laying floors" and "replacing the finishing flooring"? Thank you.
Answer:
The floor structure includes several layers:
- base
- thermal insulation
- soundproofing
- coupler
- top (finish) coating
Depending on the number of layers, floors can be single-layer and multi-layer. The number of floor layers, as a rule, depends on the purpose of the room.
Single-layer floors are not used from an acoustic point of view.
No project or permit is required to replace the floor finish. Violation is an unauthorized change in the design of the floor.
Replacing the floor structure is carried out according to the project, and on the basis of the permission of the Moscow Housing Inspection. Soundproofing of porous elastic material for living quarters is required. The floor plan includes a floor plan, a floor plan, and a floor waterproofing plan.
The project requires a contract for architectural supervision.
In the process of work, it is necessary to draw up certificates of examination of hidden works.
Activation of hidden work is carried out with the participation of a representative of the design organization, the customer, the work foreman and the representative of the owner.
Acts for hidden work must be drawn up immediately after their completion, if in the further course of construction this type of work or structure must be hidden.
In the case of performing work on their own, the act can be drawn up with the participation of representatives of the management company, housing maintenance organization and the owner of the premises.
According to the Regulations for the design and implementation of the reconstruction and (or) redevelopment of residential and non-residential premises in residential buildings on the territory of the city of Moscow (Decree of the Government of Moscow of September 25, 2007 N 831-PP "On amendments and additions to the Decree of the Government of Moscow of February 8, 2005 N 73-PP”), in the absence of acts for hidden works, the Inspectorate has the right to demand selective opening of the structures of the controlled object in order to check the quality of the layers in multilayer structures, the correct filling of seams, joints, etc.
The requirements for floor structures are set out in the regulatory documents: SNiP 2.03.13-88. floors; SNiP 3.04.01-87. Insulating and finishing coatings"; SNiP II-12-77. Noise protection; "MDS 31-11.2007. Floor arrangement"; "Floors". Technical requirements and rules for design, installation, acceptance, operation and repair (in development of SNiP 2.03.13-88 "Floors" and SNiP 3.04.01-87 "Insulating and finishing coatings"), Recommendations for the installation of floors (in development of SNIP 3.04.01- 87 "Insulating and finishing coatings"), "Recommendations for the installation of floors" were developed by the flooring department of JSC "TsNIIPromzdaniy" in the development of SNiP 3.04.01-87 "Waterproofing and finishing coatings", section 4 "Flooring", etc.
Since it is present in this answer from 2011. from the State Housing Inspectorate of Moscow, the wording, under the guise of which some grass-roots workers, who probably do not have "forbidden sexes" in the upper neighbors, were hiding and are hiding behind when they reply to complaints about self-governing officials from above.
Note: Since approximately 2012, the section "Answers-Questions" in the forum genre has disappeared on the website of the GZhI of Moscow. Therefore, I can’t say anything about the policy of this supervisory authority at the moment ...
If the floor in the entrance collapses in your apartment building, especially if your house was built quite recently and is under warranty (service life up to 5 years), do not delay, but immediately write a statement to management company!
Let's give an example of poor-quality flooring in the entrance to the house number 30 on the street. Polbin, which was built by the construction company - PSK, and which is served by the management company "Simstroy".
The destruction of the floor covering in the entrance, as in the above photo, occurred due to a violation in the construction process of the technology of pouring the floor screed and self-leveling floor. Firstly, when pouring the floor screed in the entrance, a low-quality mortar was used, the damaged areas of the floor make it possible to fully assess the quality of the screed: it is easily destroyed even with a weak mechanical impact, turning into dust and sand.
Secondly, before pouring the self-leveling floor, the builders did not apply a primer and did not remove debris from the floor surface. Accordingly, a few months after the house was put into operation, in one place, then in another, in all three entrances of the house, the self-leveling floor cracked and collapsed, forming holes of various sizes and shapes.
Some residents applied to the Simstroy management company about this, but due to the fact that the appeals were mostly verbal, the repairs were carried out with VERY long delays and again - of poor quality. After the repair, you can’t even dream about the uniformity of the floor covering, rejoice that the holes are patched up and say thank you - such a policy for correcting jambs in the PSK with the approval of the Simstroy Management Company. Therefore, in order to ensure that all facts of violation of the fulfillment of their obligations by the developer and the management company must always be documented, so that at least something can be presented to them later.
The application must be drawn up and signed in two copies: one for the management company, the second for you, as confirmation of the very fact of the appeal.
The director of the management company or his authorized representative, when accepting the application, must fill in the necessary data on your copy (position, date and full name) and sign for receipt of his copy.
Application example:
Managing Director
LLC "Simstroy"
Grishov V. M.
from the owner of the №____
MKD on the street. Polbina, d-30
_____________________
________________________
Statement
In the house number 30 on the street. Polbin in the second entrance on the landing XXXX floors, the floor covering is destroyed and bare dirty concrete slabs protrude in these places. This problem was almost from the very beginning of the operation of the house, which indicates the low quality of construction work.
For three years, the flooring in the entrances has been destroyed one by one in different places, repairs are being carried out with a very long delay. After the repair, the aesthetic appearance of the floor is very far from perfect and spoils the whole view of the entrance.
The managing organization "Simstroy" until now refuses to carry out work on the maintenance of common property on their own initiative . Thus, this inaction is contrary to the norms of the law and is a way of evading the obligation to maintain the common property of the owners of an apartment building.
In this regard, I require:
1. Within 10 (ten) working days, fix the floor covering in the second entrance on the landing of the 10th floor, ensuring an even and uniform floor covering.
In case of non-compliance, a copy of the application and photographs of the floor will be sent to the housing and communal services committee, housing inspection, the district prosecutor's office and the administration of the city of Ulyanovsk.
| ___________ | ____________ | ___________________ | ||||
| the date | signature | FULL NAME. | ||||
| Application received: | ___________________ | ___________ | ____________ | ___________________ | ||
| position | the date | signature | FULL NAME. | |||
If the management company does not repair the floor in the entrance within the specified period and does not provide a reasonable written response on the postponement of the repair work, send a complaint against the public utilities through the ROSZKH portal (http://roszkh.ru/). It is better to send a complaint to absolutely all state bodies that the ROSZHKH website offers. If the complaint goes to the wrong address, you will only be told that this is not their area of activity and responsibility. It will be much worse if you miss the main addressee.
Attention, question!
Who thinks that due to the poor quality of the screed and self-leveling floor in the entrances, the developer of PSK LLC must completely correct all the shortcomings, for example, put on all stairwells near apartments floor tiles? - write your opinion in the comments.
Often, the collapsed entrances of our high-rise buildings resemble frames from films about the apocalypse. Shabby walls, broken glass and floor tiles - all this does not add aesthetics to stairwells and elevator lobbies. It is very unpleasant to go to your home in such an environment.
Complaint about the lack of repair in the entrance
Complaint about the lack of repair in the entrance - 1
Complaint about the lack of repair in the entrance - 2
Complaint about the lack of repair in the entrance - 3
Complaint about the lack of repair in the entrance - 4
The following video will help everyone whose entrance needs overhaul, and public utilities are in no hurry to help in this:
broken windows
Often, in our porches, regardless of the time of year, the wind is walking, it is wet from rain or snow. Broken windows in stairwells are one of the troubles that housing department employees do not seek to quickly fix.
And now it's time to find out who should change the windows in the entrances.
Who should change the windows in the entrances
Meanwhile, the house management company is obliged to glaze the broken window for one day in winter and three days in the warm season. This is spelled out in Appendix No. 2 of the Rules and Regulations technical operation housing stock.
Therefore, all the excuses and replies of the housing office employees have no underlying reason. Demand to replace the glass with a whole one, without any hesitation. Again, this is the direct responsibility of the management company.
How to file a complaint
Please contact the Housing Authority. This is the first thing you should remember when the "communal services" refuse to provide quality services. This service was created to control the negligent actions of housing and communal services employees.
Let's describe in detail the procedure for detecting a broken window in the entrance:
- contacting your management company;
- in case of refusal - an appeal to the State Housing Inspectorate;
- filing a complaint;
- filing an application by sending it by registered mail with notification or handing it over personally to an employee;
- wait thirty days before the decision is made (this period is established by law);
- after the decision is made to eliminate, the "communal services" will have forty-five days to eliminate the malfunction.
Of course, because of such a trifle as broken glass, it is unlikely that you will have to initiate a complaint procedure with the housing inspectorate and the housing department employees will glaze the window. But you still have an effective method to fight.
You can download an application for replacing windows in the entrance.
Entrance window replacement request
Application for replacement of windows in the entrance - 1
Application for replacement of windows in the entrance - 2
Application for replacement of windows in the entrance - 3
And what about the residents who have not repaired the stairs (steps) in the entrance for a long time, just as the broken floor tiles have not changed? We will talk about this below.
The video below tells how the Criminal Code should work in relation to replacing windows in the entrances:
Broken tiles in hallways
Let's talk about another aspect of the unfinished repair in the entrance - broken flooring. This issue is especially relevant in the context of non-working lighting. In this case, it is very easy to get injured by tripping on the destroyed flooring.
And the first thing we will talk about is whether the housing office should lay tiles in the entrance.
Should the housing office lay it
We will immediately answer - it must, based on the Rules and norms for the technical operation of the housing stock that we have already mentioned. Any damage to the floors must be repaired immediately by the housing department staff.
Once again, we will make a reservation - you have already paid for all services for the repair of the entrance. Therefore, no additional funds are required from you. Moreover, it is necessary to demand satisfactory work of the housing office, because we give money for their services every month.
How to get a repair
The method is still the same, file a complaint with the housing inspectorate. You can also write a complaint to Rospotrebnadzor - an organization that controls the quality of services provided to the population.
The claim statement about the tiles in the entrance to the Criminal Code or similar organizations is written in free form, (for example, in the style: “we ask you to replace the floor tiles in the entrance”). But you can also apply the template that we described above. We also considered the order of submission. The actions of residents in any appeal to the supervisory authorities are similar. The only thing we want to warn you about is that do not forget about the number of requests. The more people living in the house to complain, the faster the "communal services" will be obliged to fix the problem.
Complaint about broken floor tiles
Complaint about broken tiles in the entrance - 1
Almost led to tragedy. The floor in Khrushchev could not withstand the load and fell into the basement. According to the preliminary version, illegal redevelopment became the cause of the collapse. Later, the Moscow Region authorities stated that direct links between repair work and there is no collapse of the plates. Why repairs are increasingly becoming dangerous not only for owners, but also for neighbors, the Vesti FM columnist figured out Pavel Anisimov.
The first footage from an apartment near Moscow, where an emergency occurred early in the morning, resembles an earthquake rather than an unsuccessful repair. The concrete floor slab sank into the basement. Around the broken floor tiles, torn wallpaper, rickety furniture. Judging by the picture, the room was renovated not so long ago. But the expensive doors between the rooms cannot be opened now - there is a hole under them.
According to rescuers, the cause of the collapse was the redevelopment of the apartment - one room was divided into two by a partition. The floor was poured instead of a light expanded clay backfill concrete screed. This increased the floor load by more than a ton.
The housing inspectorate of the Moscow region reported that the collapsed slab, contrary to the norms, was not reinforced, which also affected its strength. Ivan Andrievsky, First Vice President of the Russian Union of Engineers, comments.
ANDRIEVSKY: For example, to start working with ceilings, including strengthening the screed, it is necessary first of all to carry out instrumental quality control of this screed: the presence of cracks, the condition of the reinforcement in this ceiling. And only after that make a design decision on how to strengthen it.
The regional Ministry of Housing and Public Utilities does not associate the collapse of the ceilings with renovation. According to officials, the floor failed in adjacent apartments on the ground floor. People lived in them for several years, and before that the building was a hostel. However, the neighbors claim that before the repair, the adjacent apartments were one room, and the floors were poured there at the same time.
Now experts are figuring out who is to blame for the destruction - the customer of the renovation or the builders who built the house back in 1971. If the owner is found guilty, he will have to pay damages to the building at his own expense. In this case, the investigation should determine how the workers checked the old floor for strength, or the owner of the apartment simply ordered that the condition of the floors be ignored. Yulia Komissarova, attorney at the Komissarov and Partners Bar, comments.
KOMISSAROV: We can screed a concrete floor only upon agreement, and depending on the type of house. Most likely, these are negligent actions on the part of the owner, who did not make the appropriate measurements. In this case, there is no fault on the part of self-guest workers. If, on the contrary, they decided - let's pour cheap concrete, then these are their guilty actions.
The statistics of collapses of residential high-rise buildings due to extreme repairs has become threatening. A few years ago in Yaroslavl, the owner of an apartment on the ground floor decided to equip himself with a basement. Hired migrant workers removed the floors and began to deepen the foundation. As a result, the entrance of six apartments collapsed, a woman died.
A similar incident occurred in Perm. Then there was a part of a five-story residential building. Two people died, two more were injured. Later it turned out that the owners of the office on the first floor decided to expand the premises and destroyed the load-bearing walls. The law forbids this - you can only make an opening in bearing wall. And then, if the technical expertise shows that such redevelopment does not threaten the strength of the house.
But most often during repairs in apartments, gas cylinders explode. There have been three such incidents in the last week alone. The other day in St. Petersburg, workers during the installation stretch ceilings blew up an apartment in a new building. The shock wave damaged 10 apartments, the elevator, knocked out part of the ceiling. Shrapnel covered cars parked near the house. Similar incidents have taken place in Samara and the Moscow region, and in all cases there are casualties.
Experts again blame apartment owners who hire uneducated coven workers with dangerous equipment, violate all building codes and repair rules. Only the Housing Inspectorate can punish unauthorized repairs. And then, if one of the neighbors complains. In fact, only a few are punished - many simply do not allow checks into their apartments with fresh European-quality repairs.